i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
PSacramento: Yes, absolutely true. The entire first chapter is devoted to debunking the idea that Jesus is an angel. In that context, the questions in verses 5 and 13 are asked. These questions only make sense as rhetorical questions, which is why some translations render the verses as statements. (As I mentioned to Reniaa, not even the WTS would say that the questions in vs 5 and 13 are not rhetorical.)
Therefore, it is logically impossible for Jesus to be an angel.
All the best,
Trevor.
i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
: I am "not" one of Jehovah's Witnesses as in a part of the W.T.S.
Uh-huh. Right. Just some random dude who devotes countless hours of his life to arguing in favor of WT doctrine and policy with former members.
If it walks like a dub, and it talks like a dub, .......
i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
Reniaa, you forgot point 6, which is that 'your cult leaders tell you so.' It's really the only point that matters. You will believe that Jesus is Michael until the WTS says that he is not, at which point you will immediately abandon your current belief and start defending the notion that Jesus is NOT Michael. This is why your religion is a cult.
I have no desire to debate you. You have showed in the past that you care nothing about truth, only about defending your cult masters in the face of their lies and generally trying to ruin decent peoples' days. I'm sorry but I just don't have the time for running around in circles with someone who simply wants to run around in circles because, presumably, she has nothing else going on in her life.
However I will say lol @ you calling the CEV an "interestingly weird translation". That's you "poisoning the well". (Google it.) Again you show that you care nothing about truth, only defending and promoting your pathetic little cult.
The CEV renders the verse as a statement while other translations (even your "translation", the nwt) render it as a rhetorical question (again, google it). It's patently obvious from the context that the verses are asking rhetorical questions and not even your cult masters would say otherwise. Read the verses in context (from the NIV):
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father"? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him." 7 In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10 He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end." 13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"? 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
: However when making reference to anything written in the bible, an "uninspired" testament or "writing" should never be brought in to give weight to a matter in question.
Why is that? You clearly don't believe the bible otherwise this debate would be over. Thank you for reminding me why I no longer debate Jehovah's Witnesses such as yourself online.
Peace.
i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
Wow! This is still going on? According to scripture Jesus CANNOT be Michael, Gabriel, or any other angel.
Read Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13:
Hebrews 1:5 - God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"
Hebrews 1:13 - God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"
According to these verses, God *NEVER* said these things to *ANY* angel. According to other verses, God *DID* say these things to Jesus. (Ps 2:7; Heb 5:5; Ps 110:1; Mt 22:42-44). Logic forces the conclusion that Jesus CANNOT be an angel.
Numerous other verses show the unlikelihood of Jesus being an angel (as has been pointed out by others), but these two verses in Hebrews PROVE it conclusively.
Seriously, why is this debate still going on? According to scripture Jesus cannot be an angel. Period. The irony is that these verses in Hebrews were written to settle this very debate. So why are we still debating? Have we disregarded scripture in this matter? Is this just debate for the sake of debate?
let's start a quick list for reference.. here's a gem from the 2008 keep yourself in god's love book:.
"....should the newlyweds identify to all the giver of each gift?
christians from macedonia.
No doubt the resident troll does not consider regulating what goes on in the bedroom of married persons to be "high control", but it strikes me as such...
"Unnatural practices in connection with sex in marriage, such as oral and anal copulation, have caused some of God's people to become impure in his eyes. But The Watchtower kept above this morass of filth by alerting married couples to God's thinking on the matter." (WT 76 Feb 15 p.122-3)
Way to keep above the morass of filth, Watchtower. Yay, cults!
since we have had it recently proved that we are indeed being watched and monitored by the suits at bethal, i thought it would be fun to start a thread just for sending messages to these people... we can be sure they will be read;).
i'll start... " ha!
i've escaped well and truly and theres no way anyone of you will ever find me again!
Hi Mom. Hi Dad.
i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
or a red herring using either
i know this has been re-hashed many times here.
in great detail with quotes from former watchtower articles, etc.
i'm going to cut to the chase and just make this brief and direct.
With regard to the 1914 generation, imo it is less about the lie (ie, whether the WT lied or was mistaken) than it is about false prophecy and telling untruths in the name of God (Ezekiel 13:8 notwithstanding - great scripture Billy).
The Watchtower Society told the world (via millions of Watchtower and Awake! magazines) for decades that the True God (whom they claim to represent as "his organization" and his only "channel of communication") "promised" something He did not promise. Doesn't matter if they "lied" or made a "mistake". They painted God as a liar and that's what matters in this case:
>> Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away. –Awake!, January 1, 1995, page 2.
>> Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: "This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur." (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment... –The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, page 6-7.
On a related note, they definitely DID lie when they said they never presumed to "originate predictions in the name of Jehovah":
>> Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah'. Never did they say 'These are the words of Jehovah'. –Awake!, March 22, 1993, page 4.
Peace.
i have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
: "That's like saying that elders aren't publishers, isn't it?"
Um. Perhaps to you. But... no... it's not.
Let's go simpler this time.
God NEVER said to any angel, "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies into a footstool for you". (Heb 1:13)
God DID say to Jesus, "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies into a footstool for you". (Mt 22:42-44)
Even simpler:
God NEVER said "X" to any angel. God DID say "X" to Jesus.
This (biblical) assertion can only be true if Jesus is NOT an angel.
It's called logic. You should try it sometime.
Peace.
